Author Topic: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA  (Read 2672 times)

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Offline tomterp

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Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Topic Start: March 11, 2008, 09:10:15 AM »
March 10, 2008, 10:41 PM ET

Braves, Angels Have Most Heart

by Nate Silver, Baseball Prospectus

I read Rick Morrissey’s column in today’s Chicago Tribune, the central claim of which is that PECOTA is liable to be an inaccurate way to predict what’s going to happen in the baseball universe, because it’s unable to account for the human element of the game:

If computers ran the world, Steven Seagal probably would have won a few Oscars by now, assuming they judged him on the $2 billion his movies have earned. If computers had a way of measuring acting ability, he’d be running a martial-arts school in a strip mall.

But they don’t run the world, yet, which means we can still type in our credit card numbers online without worrying that all our money is being sucked into a fund earmarked for global dominance by a dastardly computer.

Computers have no use for heart, or least they can’t quantify it. They can’t analyze what’s inside an athlete, for example. They can’t tell you who has the heart of a lion or the backbone of an earthworm.

As it happens, I was spending some time today going back through PECOTA’s historical projected standings. You can find a complete list of these projections, going back to 2003, right here. Our worst projection ever? We forecast the Diamondbacks to go 81-81 in 2004. They wound up playing terribly in the first half of the season and punted on the second, finishing instead at 51-111. In terms of the teams we most underestimated, there is a three way tie: the 2003 Royals (83 wins versus a forecast 64), the 2004 Dodgers (93 wins versus 74) and … the 2005 White Sox (99 wins versus 80) each beat their projections by 19 wins.

Anyway, it occurred to me that if we figure out which teams have finished the most ahead of their PECOTA projections over the course of time, we can determine which teams have the most Heart. It turns out that there is no team that has beaten its PECOTA projection in each of the last five seasons (nor has any team underachieved its projection for five years running). But if we add up the wins and losses over the five-year period, we find that the Braves finished the furthest ahead of their projections, finishing a cumulative 35 games above their PECOTA baseline. They are trailed by the Angels at +33 and the White Sox at +30; these are the baseball teams that have the most Heart.




On the other side of the equation, the Broken Hearts Club is dominated by the Diamondbacks — who had that terrible year in 2004 — with the Cubs occupying the #2 slot. Put that in your latte and stir it, Northsiders!



Getting (modestly) more serious for a moment, there may be some systematic factors in the teams that tend to beat their PECOTA projections. The teams that have finished ahead of PECOTA tend to be well-run, cohesive organizations with good scouting departments and organizational cultures; these teams may have more capacity to right the ship as the season advances onward. There also may have been some bias toward underrating teams that play good defense (which PECOTA didn’t account for until 2005) or that run the bases well (which PECOTA didn’t account for until this season).

Overall, though, the PECOTA projections have tended to get more and more accurate over time. The average error in our won-loss projections since 2003 has been as follows:

2003    5.91 wins
2004    7.71 wins
2005    5.14 wins
2006    4.94 wins
2007    4.31 wins

You’re wasting your time, Rick Morrissey! The more you ignore PECOTA, the closer it gets.


Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #1: March 11, 2008, 01:00:50 PM »
Guess we're not going to win the division with our abysmal PECOTA prediction and middling AHF (average heart factor)

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #2: March 11, 2008, 01:29:10 PM »
I thought PECOTA was an animal rights organization?  I thought the Sox and Cubs were in for it when I read the title....

Offline kimnat

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #3: March 11, 2008, 01:46:11 PM »
I thought PECOTA was an animal rights organization?  I thought the Sox and Cubs were in for it when I read the title....

LOL!  PETA

Offline soxfan59

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #4: March 12, 2008, 08:16:00 AM »

As it happens, I was spending some time today going back through PECOTA’s historical projected standings. You can find a complete list of these projections, going back to 2003, right here. Our worst projection ever? We forecast the Diamondbacks to go 81-81 in 2004. They wound up playing terribly in the first half of the season and punted on the second, finishing instead at 51-111. In terms of the teams we most underestimated, there is a three way tie: the 2003 Royals (83 wins versus a forecast 64), the 2004 Dodgers (93 wins versus 74) and … the 2005 White Sox (99 wins versus 80) each beat their projections by 19 wins.

* * *

Getting (modestly) more serious for a moment, there may be some systematic factors in the teams that tend to beat their PECOTA projections. The teams that have finished ahead of PECOTA tend to be well-run, cohesive organizations with good scouting departments and organizational cultures; these teams may have more capacity to right the ship as the season advances onward. There also may have been some bias toward underrating teams that play good defense (which PECOTA didn’t account for until 2005) or that run the bases well (which PECOTA didn’t account for until this season).

I'll take the statement in bold in the second paragraph above as an admission from the propeller heads that PECOTA is not the be all and end all they advertise it to be. 

So how do we rank the success of Baseball Prospectus as evaluators?  The fact that they consistently mis-forcast 12 of the 30 MLB teams by 15-30 games?  Or the fact that thier overall won/lost prediction level is improving by about one game per year? 

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

And please, don't get me wrong.  The Bill James style approach to statistics has added a lot to the analysis of baseball, and a statistic like PECOTA, or win percentages, or OPS, or whichever of the new stats you want to use, is a valuable tool for getting a more accurate picture of a player's or team's performance.

But its the arrogance of the BP crowd that gets me.  As if they, by crunching numbers alone, can predict what will happen.  The game is still played on the field.

When I read "Moneyball," my conclusion was that the reason Billy Beane has never won a World Series is because he is too slavishly committed to stats.  If would go with a more traditional scouting approach every now and then, he might find a player his stats geeks would overlook that might get him over the top.

There needs to be a happy medium. A guy like Theo Epstein makes that work, plus the added factor of buckets of cash.

And by the way . . . Rick Morrisey is a horses ass.  He wouldn't know good baseball analysis if it french kissed him.  He hasn't written an insightful article in about 16 years, and I know, I read the Tribune every day.

Offline tomterp

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #5: March 12, 2008, 08:51:00 AM »
I'll take the statement in bold in the second paragraph above as an admission from the propeller heads that PECOTA is not the be all and end all they advertise it to be. 

So how do we rank the success of Baseball Prospectus as evaluators?  The fact that they consistently mis-forcast 12 of the 30 MLB teams by 15-30 games?  Or the fact that thier overall won/lost prediction level is improving by about one game per year? 


It's quite impossible to predict the future, but it's not impossible to be the best at doing it.  I like that they are making tweaks to the system each year, learning from their errors and oversights.  Nobody is claiming that it is "the answer" to all your predicting needs.  Last season they finished a close 3rd among the predicting clan - the top two also are computer modeling based, but all 3 beat the pants off the lone rangers who do it by "feel". 

Are stats based analysis and predictions deeply flawed?  Yes.  But they also have been proven to be very useful, despite the warts.  And as time goes by, they can be improved.  Because they aren't perfect is no reason to throw up ones hands in frustration and quit.  Instead, listen to the critics and factor in the feedback, and the modeling gets better over time.

Soxfan, I know you're such a fan of this stuff that I'm going to bring you a special treat, a couple of articles from BP on the subject of "is Moneyball dead?"  LOL  Stay tuned.


Offline soxfan59

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #6: March 12, 2008, 11:00:00 AM »
It's quite impossible to predict the future, but it's not impossible to be the best at doing it.  I like that they are making tweaks to the system each year, learning from their errors and oversights.  Nobody is claiming that it is "the answer" to all your predicting needs.  Last season they finished a close 3rd among the predicting clan - the top two also are computer modeling based, but all 3 beat the pants off the lone rangers who do it by "feel". 

Are stats based analysis and predictions deeply flawed?  Yes.  But they also have been proven to be very useful, despite the warts.  And as time goes by, they can be improved.  Because they aren't perfect is no reason to throw up ones hands in frustration and quit.  Instead, listen to the critics and factor in the feedback, and the modeling gets better over time.

Soxfan, I know you're such a fan of this stuff that I'm going to bring you a special treat, a couple of articles from BP on the subject of "is Moneyball dead?"  LOL  Stay tuned.



Tom, as I have said, its not the use of statistics that bother me, its the arrogance of the stat heads.  I used to be a BP subscriber, but couldn't take the hubris.  Reasing articles that made excuses for mis-predictions (like the one you copied here), even ones that said, in so many words, "Well, things happened over the course of the season that negatively impacted on the statistical analysis for our predictions."  Duh!  For example, BP predicted that the White Sox would win only 72 games in 2007 -- exactly correct.  But the reasons BP gave for the result turned out to be completely different than the reasons why the Sox were so miserable last year.  If the BP crowd viewed themselves as something a little less than omnipotent, I'd be more open.

I actually love statistical analysis.  I haven't done it for a while, but I used to regularly play computer simulated baseball leagues on line, and you have got to be stats savvy to win.  I take a real "Moneyball" approach there -- OBP and cheap innings eaters are at the top of my list!

I look forward to reading the stuff on Moneyball. 

arkymark

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #7: March 21, 2008, 07:23:46 AM »
I agree that the hubris of the Baseball Prospectus writers makes their stuff hard to read.  Reminds me of some comedian in the 50s -- Mort Sahl, maybe -- who talked about jazz fans who thought that they were talented because they listened to Thelonius Monk.

On the other hand, I am pleased to see it in writing, with statistics, that the Sox have heart and the Cubs do not.

Offline tomterp

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #8: March 21, 2008, 09:26:33 AM »
I agree that the hubris of the Baseball Prospectus writers makes their stuff hard to read. 

I admit I find it more appealing than the smug arrogance of some baseball insiders, who insist nobody else can understand the game because they didn't play it.  For example, few statheads are able to comprehend the greatness of Dusty Baker, who believes players who reach base by walking are "clogging the basepaths", and who is leaning towards batting Corey Patterson leadoff for the Reds, despite an abysmal OBP. 

Offline spidernat

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #9: March 21, 2008, 09:35:51 AM »
the smug arrogance of some baseball insiders, who insist nobody else can understand the game because they didn't play it.


While this may be true about the so called baseball insiders you can now add the stat heads and their followers to the group of arrogant baseball know it alls.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #10: March 21, 2008, 09:50:42 AM »
I admit I find it more appealing than the smug arrogance of some baseball insiders, who insist nobody else can understand the game because they didn't play it.  For example, few statheads are able to comprehend the greatness of Dusty Baker, who believes players who reach base by walking are "clogging the basepaths", and who is leaning towards batting Corey Patterson leadoff for the Reds, despite an abysmal OBP. 

Tom, it's called a walk. They have to walk around the bases. Duh.

Offline soxfan59

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #11: March 21, 2008, 10:00:02 AM »
I admit I find it more appealing than the smug arrogance of some baseball insiders, who insist nobody else can understand the game because they didn't play it.  For example, few statheads are able to comprehend the greatness of Dusty Baker, who believes players who reach base by walking are "clogging the basepaths", and who is leaning towards batting Corey Patterson leadoff for the Reds, despite an abysmal OBP. 

Well I find it even more smug and arrogant for a guy with horn rimmed glasses and a pocket protector who gets burned if he sits in the sun would think computer analysis is the only way to study the game.  The BP propeller heads are great at that.  They mock Dusty Baker for his inability to recognize statistical reality, but chalk it up to just plain luck when he makes it to the World Series.  Don't get me wrong -- I think the new statistics do indeed add a dimension to understanding the game that transcends traditional baseball analysis and brings greater understanding.  But there is a more personal side to the game as well, one that comes from observation and closeness to the game.  Scouting is important.  I think there needs to be a happy medium -- a blending of the two approaches.  I think that's why the Red Sox have been so successful in recent years.

I like arkymark's reference to jazz fans.  I'm a jazz enthusiast, and there is nothing worse than a self absorbed jazz fan.  Back when Miles Davis was a jazz star, his fans used to analyze his solos, and make excuses for the missed notes -- "He meant to play those wrong notes -- it takes a real artist to know when to play notes that don't fit the chord changes" etc.

Offline blue911

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #12: March 21, 2008, 10:02:30 AM »
John McGraw is credited with "inventing" the platoon system.

Gene Mauch used to bat Brian Downing in the leadoff spot.

Earl Weaver had file cards on all players, so he knew the history of batter/pitcher match ups.
Weaver knew the value of OBS when Bill James was still in high school.

It's quite obvious that there is a place for both "Old School" and "Moneyball". A person would have to be a fool to overlook modern statistical data. Why not use every resource that you can?


Offline blue911

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #13: March 21, 2008, 10:22:02 AM »
I see no difference between Corey Patterson and Christian Guzman as leadoff hitters.

Offline spidernat

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #14: March 21, 2008, 11:35:19 AM »
Well I find it even more smug and arrogant for a guy with horn rimmed glasses and a pocket protector who gets burned if he sits in the sun would think computer analysis is the only way to study the game.  The BP propeller heads are great at that.  They mock Dusty Baker for his inability to recognize statistical reality, but chalk it up to just plain luck when he makes it to the World Series.  Don't get me wrong -- I think the new statistics do indeed add a dimension to understanding the game that transcends traditional baseball analysis and brings greater understanding.  But there is a more personal side to the game as well, one that comes from observation and closeness to the game.  Scouting is important.  I think there needs to be a happy medium -- a blending of the two approaches.  I think that's why the Red Sox have been so successful in recent years.




Offline PANatsFan

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #15: March 21, 2008, 11:43:01 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qft

3 out of 5 definitions are from physics

or Quick Fill Toners- busted, spidernat

Offline tomterp

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #16: March 21, 2008, 11:57:18 AM »
I see no difference between Corey Patterson and Christian Guzman as leadoff hitters.

2007:

Guzman  .328 / .380 / .466
Patterson  .269 / .304 / .386

.380 > .304

arkymark

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #17: March 21, 2008, 12:12:07 PM »
Oh, yeah, bring statistics into it.  How cheap.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #18: March 21, 2008, 12:26:05 PM »
2007:

Guzman  .328 / .380 / .466
Patterson  .269 / .304 / .386

.380 > .304
Small sample size.

Guzman's career OBP: .302
Patterson's: .298

Guzman's ISO patience last year: .052 - a career high :? and he'd have to bat .280 to have an acceptable OBP with that :|

arkymark

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #19: March 21, 2008, 12:51:28 PM »
What's ISO patience?

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #20: March 21, 2008, 01:02:13 PM »
Difference between OBP and batting average.  It's a rough indicator of a player's ability to draw walks.  Guzman still wasn't that great at drawing walks last year, although he was better than he has been in the past.

Offline blue911

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #21: March 21, 2008, 02:29:23 PM »
2007:

Guzman  .328 / .380 / .466
Patterson  .269 / .304 / .386

.380 > .304

So you expect Guzman to duplicate these numbers over the 2008 season? I do know that there have only been three times in Guzman's career where he's posted an OBP at or above .380 for a calender month. And lets throw away the fact that he hit  second twice as often as leadoff last year.

Offline soxfan59

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #22: March 21, 2008, 03:48:38 PM »
Difference between OBP and batting average.  It's a rough indicator of a player's ability to draw walks.  Guzman still wasn't that great at drawing walks last year, although he was better than he has been in the past.

Plus, Guzman only played in 46 games last year.  Over the usual 140 games or so he generally plays, that evens out. 

arkymark

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #23: March 21, 2008, 04:01:46 PM »

Difference between OBP and batting average.  It's a rough indicator of a player's ability to draw walks.  Guzman still wasn't that great at drawing walks last year, although he was better than he has been in the past.

Thanks.  I wish they'd stop creating new stat acronyms, but I try to keep up.

Offline tomterp

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Re: Sox, Cubs, and PECOTA
« Reply #24: March 22, 2008, 12:04:34 AM »
So you expect Guzman to duplicate these numbers over the 2008 season? I do know that there have only been three times in Guzman's career where he's posted an OBP at or above .380 for a calender month. And lets throw away the fact that he hit  second twice as often as leadoff last year.


So do you completely blow off the possible favorable impact that having his vision corrected, and his torn labrum repaired, might have had to make him a better player?  The numbers I posted are representive of what he has done in ST 2007, 2008 and regular season 2007 before being injured.  To me, there are "before" numbers, and "after" numbers.  If you want to average his whole career together, you would be joining the mainstream and have plenty of company.  However, I prefer to remain optimistic that the work that was done has opened to door to a new, higher plateau of performance.

No, I don't expect him to match his 2007 level of performance, but I do expect him to be closer to 2007 than to 2005, and substantially closer too.