Author Topic: Stephen Strasburg Watch  (Read 99817 times)

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Offline NFA Brian

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #475: March 24, 2009, 12:43:34 PM »
I didn't realize how many people don't understand how the initial signing worked.

Briefly.

College player signs minor league contract

three years before he has to be added to the 40- man roster. (minor league contract)
three years of options (Major League Contract)
three years of team controlled salary
three years of arbitration.

Total = 3*4 or 12 years.

All Strasburg signing a MLB contract does is take away the first three years. Nothing more,Nothing less.

Now that being said, those are the outside parameters. Ryan Zimmerman and Justin Maxwell were both drafted the same year but Zimmerman is out of options but not Maxwell.
 

Zimmerman is not out of options. He still has his full allotment of three option years remaining. The fact is the Nationals have no desire to use them.

Option years can run forever. It's just that after five years of service time, a player has to consent to being sent down (which they almost certainly will not)

Offline blue911

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #476: March 24, 2009, 12:45:12 PM »
that assumes that he's going to be spending time in the minors and not making the team the year after he's drafted

I think Dave Winfield was the last player to go from college to the majors without spending any time playing minor league ball.

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #477: March 24, 2009, 12:45:37 PM »

All Strasburg signing a MLB contract does is take away the first three years. Nothing more,Nothing less.


The team doesn't get to control his salary if he signs a major league contract, those terms will be dictated by the contract.  Also, David Price has a stipulation in his contract that Boras will most likely include in SS's contract where Price can void his contract and enter arbitration during any year in which he normally would have been arbitration eligible.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #478: March 24, 2009, 12:46:52 PM »
I think Dave Winfield was the last player to go from college to the majors without spending any time playing minor league ball.

I said the year after, i.e. 2010 starting rotation

Offline NFA Brian

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #479: March 24, 2009, 12:48:38 PM »
The team doesn't get to control his salary if he signs a major league contract, those terms will be dictated by the contract.  Also, David Price has a stipulation in his contract that Boras will most likely include in SS's contract where Price can void his contract and enter arbitration during any year in which he normally would have been arbitration eligible.

And the voiding of the contract is there in the case that he could receive a higher salary than agreed to to through arbitration. It's basically allowing Price to accept the better option, his previously agreed to salary or what he could minimally receive through arbitration.

Offline blue911

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #480: March 24, 2009, 01:02:28 PM »
The team doesn't get to control his salary if he signs a major league contract, those terms will be dictated by the contract.  Also, David Price has a stipulation in his contract that Boras will most likely include in SS's contract where Price can void his contract and enter arbitration during any year in which he normally would have been arbitration eligible.

But that doesn't subjugate the CBA. And it doesn't carry from one year to the next.

Offline NFA Brian

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #481: March 24, 2009, 01:02:44 PM »
The idea of options and arbitration is not black and white in the way described above. Things can happen concurrently. In one major league season, a player can use an option year and still accrue time towards arbitration and free agency.

Players do not need to placed on a 40-man roster for four (>=19 years old at time of draft) or five (< 19 years old at time of draft). That is true but the overwhelming odds are that Strasburg is getting a major league contract and is immediately on the 40-man roster, so those years are gone from the scenario.

At that point, option years start. MLB teams have a minimum of three years in which they can option a player to the minor leagues without his permission (teams can get a fourth option year if a player spends an entire season optioned to the minors ... Justin Maxwell has a fourth option year because of that). Teams can send down and recall a player as many times as they want during that season, but once a player is in the minors for 20 days in a row, an option is used.

But, every day a player remains on the 25-man roster, he accrues service time towards arbitration and free agency. Meaning a player can use their option years while accruing the days necessary for arbitration and free agency. Last year, Roger Bernadina used an option year and accrued days towards arbitration and free agency. He is likely to use his second option year early on in 2010. But if he gets recalled for any period of time, those days count towards arbitration and free agency.

For those first three years of service time (not necessarily calendar years), the team controls the player's major league salary. Once a player has accrued three years of service time (or the small number who are Super Two), they enter the arbitration part of their career. Keep in mind that a player who has reached arbitration could theoretically still have option years remaining (Zimmerman is a case in point). If the Nationals wanted to, they could option Zimmerman to the minor leagues without his consent. He does not yet have the five years of service time to have the right to refuse.

Once a player reaches six years of service time, he is a free agent. This is where teams can game the system by dragging things out earlier to push free agency out one additional year. If Jordan Zimmermann were to begin the 2009 season on the Nats roster and remain there uninterrupted for the next six seasons, he would be a free agent after the 2014 season. If the Nats, delay his debut by two weeks and change, his free agency is pushed out one season (but not necessarily his arbitration).

Offline blue911

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #482: March 24, 2009, 01:10:36 PM »
The idea of options and arbitration is not black and white in the way described above. Things can happen concurrently. In one major league season, a player can use an option year and still accrue time towards arbitration and free agency.

Players do not need to placed on a 40-man roster for four (>=19 years old at time of draft) or five (< 19 years old at time of draft). That is true but the overwhelming odds are that Strasburg is getting a major league contract and is immediately on the 40-man roster, so those years are gone from the scenario.

At that point, option years start. MLB teams have a minimum of three years in which they can option a player to the minor leagues without his permission (teams can get a fourth option year if a player spends an entire season optioned to the minors ... Justin Maxwell has a fourth option year because of that). Teams can send down and recall a player as many times as they want during that season, but once a player is in the minors for 20 days in a row, an option is used.

But, every day a player remains on the 25-man roster, he accrues service time towards arbitration and free agency. Meaning a player can use their option years while accruing the days necessary for arbitration and free agency. Last year, Roger Bernadina used an option year and accrued days towards arbitration and free agency. He is likely to use his second option year early on in 2010. But if he gets recalled for any period of time, those days count towards arbitration and free agency.

For those first three years of service time (not necessarily calendar years), the team controls the player's major league salary. Once a player has accrued three years of service time (or the small number who are Super Two), they enter the arbitration part of their career. Keep in mind that a player who has reached arbitration could theoretically still have option years remaining (Zimmerman is a case in point). If the Nationals wanted to, they could option Zimmerman to the minor leagues without his consent. He does not yet have the five years of service time to have the right to refuse.

Once a player reaches six years of service time, he is a free agent. This is where teams can game the system by dragging things out earlier to push free agency out one additional year. If Jordan Zimmermann were to begin the 2009 season on the Nats roster and remain there uninterrupted for the next six seasons, he would be a free agent after the 2014 season. If the Nats, delay his debut by two weeks and change, his free agency is pushed out one season (but not necessarily his arbitration).

Man you've got a lot more patience than I do. Now email how this works to Tom Boswell so he can understand it also. Do you know that it was a capitol offense in the Aztec Empire to purposefully spread disinformation?

Offline NFA Brian

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #483: March 24, 2009, 01:15:33 PM »
Don't get me started on how teams game the arbitration system. Just watch Jordan Zimmermann makes his major league debut on June 1 which would likely push his arbitration out one year

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #484: March 24, 2009, 01:31:19 PM »
Don't get me started on how teams game the arbitration system. Just watch Jordan Zimmermann makes his major league debut on June 1 which would likely push his arbitration out one year

dont forget weiters, at least with Zimmermann you can argue about whether he's ready (hard argument), but is Greg Zaun, or what ever crappy vetran the O's have- I'm too lazy to look it up really better than Weiters?

Offline NFA Brian

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #485: March 24, 2009, 01:40:07 PM »
dont forget weiters, at least with Zimmermann you can argue about whether he's ready (hard argument), but is Greg Zaun, or what ever crappy vetran the O's have- I'm too lazy to look it up really better than Weiters?

I figure the Orioles are just going to game Weiters out of free agency (two or so weeks). It will be more difficult to drag that out until June 1 to game arbitration.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #486: March 24, 2009, 01:43:00 PM »
I figure the Orioles are just going to game Weiters out of free agency (two or so weeks). It will be more difficult to drag that out until June 1 to game arbitration.

If they're last in the division (likely) and look terrible (also likely), after two weeks would it really shock you if they just waited?

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #487: March 24, 2009, 01:45:34 PM »
If they're last in the division (likely) and look terrible (also likely), after two weeks would it really shock you if they just waited?

If Weiters plays like he did last season, it would be tough to wait out two months.  Especially if they are last in the division.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #488: March 24, 2009, 02:30:53 PM »
here's another opinion from your friend and mine ...

Strasburg ready for majors right now

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 | Print Entry

Posted by Keith Law

What you have heard on Stephen Strasburg is true. He is bar none the best college pitching prospect in at least 10 years, and there's nobody close to him -- college or high school, pitcher or position player -- in this draft.

The stuff is legit. The San Diego State right-hander hit 99 twice on my gun Friday, sat 97-99 through the third inning against Brigham Young and was still touching 98 in the seventh while never dropping below 94. His fastball has hard riding life to his glove side. His slider was a wipeout pitch, 81-84 mph with tilt and depth and a high degree of toxicity to opposing hitters.

He showed above-average command and was helped by BYU hitters who were playing defense the entire game; he didn't have great location on his fastball but rarely missed inside the zone. He never showed a changeup but didn't need one, as he fanned 15 men in seven innings, and has now struck out 60.6 percent of the batters he has faced this season.

Physically, Strasburg is in the best shape of his life, and that's not just spring training talk. He has a wiry-strong build with barely any fat on him, which is a major improvement over where he was in high school, when excess weight was a major reason he was bypassed entirely in the 2006 Rule 4 Draft. (He wasn't throwing 97-99 then, either.)

He takes an enormous stride toward the plate and generates absurd arm speed as his arm catches up to the rest of his body (that is, his arm is slightly "late" relative to his front side), which is a double-edged sword since it gives him great velocity but the lag puts some extra stress on his shoulder. He has no problems repeating his delivery, which is a good sign for future command.

If there's a concern on Strasburg, it's that a handful of guys who saw sudden spikes in their velocities have broken down soon afterward -- Boston prospect Nick Hagadone blew out his elbow inside of a year, while Joel Zumaya got about four years in before his arm went haywire -- the theory being that their arms weren't physically able to handle the increases in arm speed.

Strasburg has gone from 88-89 as a high school senior in 2006 to 94-97 in the summers of 2007 and 2008 to 96-100 now, and there is no good comparable that might give us guidance on how he'll hold up or even what his early career might look like. If you're in the Nationals' shoes, you need to just draft him and hope for the best.

The latest rumor -- which is probably just that, rumor -- is that Strasburg will demand a major-league deal covering five years with a guarantee of $25 million. (Strasburg and his adviser, Scott Boras, can not discuss terms with major-league teams right now, and it would in fact be very early for any adviser to even hint at dollar figures.)

If I'm Washington, I would give Strasburg that deal and bring him directly to the big leagues. I'm not sure what Strasburg could possibly have to learn in the minors, and if there really is a finite number of pitches in that arm, you might as well get the most out of them.

Strasburg would also give Washington a better chance to win than it's likely to have with any starter on that team, even if his command is only fair, and he'd be a significant draw for fans who really need a good reason to come out to Nationals Park right now.

The price tag quoted above may be completely bogus, but I don't think it's unreasonable when you consider what Strasburg could do for Washington if he signs quickly.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #489: March 24, 2009, 02:40:22 PM »
wow, I agree with Law. That may be a first.

Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #490: March 24, 2009, 02:42:15 PM »
What did Law say that hasn't already been said or discussed multiple times? Just more hot air from one of sports writings biggest douche bags.

Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #491: March 24, 2009, 02:43:58 PM »
Big ole article on Strasburg from Steve Henson at Yahoo.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=sh-strasburg032409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Offline blue911

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #492: March 24, 2009, 02:48:09 PM »
Quote
If I'm Washington, I would give Strasburg that deal and bring him directly to the big leagues. I'm not sure what Strasburg could possibly have to learn in the minors, and if there really is a finite number of pitches in that arm, you might as well get the most out of them.

I have a problem with this statement. The biggest thing Strasburg could learn in the minors is how to gear up for a 162 game schedule versus the 56 game schedule that SDSU plays.

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #493: March 24, 2009, 03:00:29 PM »
Quote
If I'm Washington, I would give Strasburg that deal and bring him directly to the big leagues. I'm not sure what Strasburg could possibly have to learn in the minors, and if there really is a finite number of pitches in that arm, you might as well get the most out of them.

How about pitching to professional batters?

I agree with many that say Strasburg could be an ace one day, but saying that he has nothing to learn from the minors is a confusion of potential with reality.  It is very possible he could dominate minor league batters from the get-go, but it is far from a certainty.

Offline wpa2629

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #494: March 24, 2009, 03:20:51 PM »
More nuggets ...

Rob Neyer has an article about "can't miss pitching prospects".


Quote:
Did Prior miss? After only nine minor league starts in 2002, Prior debuted in the majors and was immediately brilliant. As a rookie, he struck out 147 major leaguers in 117 innings; in his first full season with the Cubs, he won 18 games.

So Prior was well worth that $10.5 million, right? Perhaps. But since winning those 18 games in 2003 -- six long years ago -- Prior has won exactly 18 more games. At this moment, it's not clear he'll ever win another.

$50 million? If Stephen Strasburg can't miss, he's worth $50 million. Maybe more. If he can jump straight to the majors and dominate for five or six years, he's worth it.

Strasburg can miss, though. Anyone can.

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #495: March 24, 2009, 03:23:46 PM »
Keith Law actually hit the nail on the head with this observation:

Quote
He takes an enormous stride toward the plate and generates absurd arm speed as his arm catches up to the rest of his body (that is, his arm is slightly "late" relative to his front side), which is a double-edged sword since it gives him great velocity but the lag puts some extra stress on his shoulder. He has no problems repeating his delivery, which is a good sign for future command.

Offline R-Zim#11

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #496: March 24, 2009, 03:34:42 PM »
The question that sits in the back of my mind is: What makes David Price and Stephen Strasburg different from just about every single other #1 Overall Pitcher? Andy Benes was the best of the bunch, I believe, winning 155 games. He had some solid years, but nothing spectacular.

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #497: March 24, 2009, 03:41:51 PM »
The question that sits in the back of my mind is: What makes David Price and Stephen Strasburg different from just about every single other #1 Overall Pitcher? Andy Benes was the best of the bunch, I believe, winning 155 games. He had some solid years, but nothing spectacular.

IMO, I think as the internet has evolved it has become easier for more people to look at more players, more times in a season.  With this increased exposure comes the ability for there to be a larger consensus on a player from the scouting/medical/mechanics world.  Whereas there used to be a handful of guys from each community that were able to weigh in on prospects, now there are hundreds of people with opinions.  Given, a lot of people watching the players now have no clue what makes a good player/prospect, there are many more that do know and get to see these kids now.  By no means should Strasburg be viewed as a sure thing, but nowadays it should be theoretically closer to a sure thing.  By how much?  I am not sure.

Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #498: March 24, 2009, 03:44:34 PM »
Gotta love the media. Only they can weave such doubt into the minds of the mob.

Offline hammondsnats

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Re: Stephen Strasburg Watch
« Reply #499: March 24, 2009, 03:47:00 PM »
Keith Law actually hit the nail on the head with this observation:


That's something I'm sure the Saint can help fix.  I'm surprised he hasn't taken a shot right back at him as a result of throwing so hard against aluminum bats. 

I'm excited to see this kid in a Nats uni, after watching him in a SDSU uni for the past couple years.