Pedro v. Kershaw

[JCA-CrystalCity]

The D.H. is not baseball.

yet there is only one league in the world that does not use it.   

Back to Pedro v. Kershaw - Clearly, the article is correct to say that Pedro had to face DH, who tend to hit better than pitchers.  Whether that makes his accomplishments better or worse than Kershaw is another issue.  Is it tougher on a pitcher to have to hit?  does Kershaw get pulled from games when Pedro would have been left in to pile up more dominant stats (ks, WHIP, etc...)?  Is it tougher for a pitcher to run the bases?  Does  pitcher in the NL get more rest by being pulled from games earlier?  Does having rules that favor a pitcher who is behind staying in the game lead to that pitcher being left in games too long?  Does the strategy issue keep NL pitchers from being lifted if they are due up?  Those are the issues to look at when discussing the effect of the DH rule on the records of  Pedro and Kershaw.

Oh, Pedro is Clapton and ...

[HalfSmokes]

it is a manager's decision I think, but in almost every case, the worst hitter is the pitcher.

that would make more sense to me, but alas

A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and allsubsequent pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in the game. A Designated Hitter for the pitcher must be selected prior to the game and must be includedin the lineup cards presented to the Umpire in Chief.
The designated hitter named in the starting lineup must come to bat at least one time, unless the opposing club changes pitchers.
It is not mandatory that a club designate a hitter for the pitcher, but failure to do so prior to the game precludes the use of a Designated Hitter for that game.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/batter_6.jsp

[whytev]

yet there is only one league in the world that does not use it.   

Back to Pedro v. Kershaw - Clearly, the article is correct to say that Pedro had to face DH, who tend to hit better than pitchers.  Whether that makes his accomplishments better or worse than Kershaw is another issue.  Is it tougher on a pitcher to have to hit?  does Kershaw get pulled from games when Pedro would have been left in to pile up more dominant stats (ks, WHIP, etc...)?  Is it tougher for a pitcher to run the bases?  Does  pitcher in the NL get more rest by being pulled from games earlier?  Does having rules that favor a pitcher who is behind staying in the game lead to that pitcher being left in games too long?  Does the strategy issue keep NL pitchers from being lifted if they are due up?  Those are the issues to look at when discussing the effect of the DH rule on the records of  Pedro and Kershaw.

Oh, Pedro is Clapton and ...
(Image removed from quote.)

The choice to hit a pitcher late in the game, the double switch, the actual NEEDING your bench for anything other than injury reserve....all part of the game, and all more exciting than some washed up guy with no knees trying to slug a home run while you play matchup baseball with your pitchers all day without consequence.

And the Japanese have no D.H.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

that would make more sense to me, but alas
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/batter_6.jsp

interesting. thanks!

[JCA-CrystalCity]

And the Japanese have no D.H.

I read the wiki.  one of the two leagues, the Central, has no DH. Pacific league has it.

[nfotiu]

The 2000 AL ERA leader list makes the comparison between these 2 seasons silly.   

1.   Martinez (BOS)   1.74
2.   Clemens (NYY)   3.70
3.   Mussina (BAL)   3.79
4.   Sirotka (CHW)   3.79
5.   Colon (CLE)   3.88
6.   Wells (TOR)   4.11
7.   Heredia (OAK)   4.12
8.   Lopez (TBD)   4.13
9.   Hudson (OAK)   4.14
10.   Finley (CLE)   4.17

[welch]

Pitchers don't hit as well as they did in the '50s. With the DH, pitchers don't learn to hit even if they are in the NL. Usually, the best player -- on a kid team -- also pitched. Best athlete I knew was a kid named Ray Dawes.  By 12, he had a great curve ball and the hardest fastball in PG County. Great fielder at 3B and best hitter on our team...until we got to 10th grade and he became backup QB and then Post All-Met HS QB in 11th and 12th grades.

The DH rule takes kids and makes them pitchers and nothing else.

By the numbers: check the BA of pitchers in the '50s and NL pitchers today. In 1959, Camilo Pascual hit about .310. In 1925, Walter Johnson hit over .400 and was used as a pinch-hitter. Jim Bunning once pitched a perfect game and also was sometimes used as a pinch-runner. Hank Aguirre, from the Tigers, was such a bad hitter that people used to cheer when he fouled a pitch. His BA was about the same as Gio's.

[tomterp]

Pitchers don't hit as well as they did in the '50s. With the DH, pitchers don't learn to hit even if they are in the NL. Usually, the best player -- on a kid team -- also pitched. Best athlete I knew was a kid named Ray Dawes.  By 12, he had a great curve ball and the hardest fastball in PG County. Great fielder at 3B and best hitter on our team...until we got to 10th grade and he became backup QB and then Post All-Met HS QB in 11th and 12th grades.

The DH rule takes kids and makes them pitchers and nothing else.

By the numbers: check the BA of pitchers in the '50s and NL pitchers today. In 1959, Camilo Pascual hit about .310. In 1925, Walter Johnson hit over .400 and was used as a pinch-hitter. Jim Bunning once pitched a perfect game and also was sometimes used as a pinch-runner. Hank Aguirre, from the Tigers, was such a bad hitter that people used to cheer when he fouled a pitch. His BA was about the same as Gio's.

So the poor hitting of pitchers today is a product of the system itself?   Makes quite a bit of sense.

Ok, I had to check.  Walter Johnson did indeed have the ability to hit, though oddly enough his final years were his most productive at the plate.  In 1925, at age 37, he turned in this quadruple slash in 107 PA's:   .433/.455/.577/1.033     

Even his career number isn't awful - .235 /.274 /.342 /.616

[whytev]

So the poor hitting of pitchers today is a product of the system itself?   Makes quite a bit of sense.

Ok, I had to check.  Walter Johnson did indeed have the ability to hit, though oddly enough his final years were his most productive at the plate.  In 1925, at age 37, he turned in this quadruple slash in 107 PA's:   .433/.455/.577/1.033     

Even his career number isn't awful - .235 /.274 /.342 /.616

If the DH had always existed, nobody would have realised Babe Ruth could hit. Ruminate on that for a while.

[spidernat]