18 games in 17 days coming up

[Lintyfresh85]

and he was having trouble throwing anyone out at second, if my memory serves me

Little bit better than league average, actually.

League average was 28% in 2011, Ramos was at 32%

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2011-specialpos_c-fielding.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramoswi01.shtml#standard_fielding::none

[Slateman]

and he was having trouble throwing anyone out at second, if my memory serves me

18% but Flores isn't much better. It's really on our pitchers. They don't care about baserunners because they can strike everyone out and get by.

Ramos dropped at least two that I can remember. Love his bat, but defense is the number 1 priority behind the plate. I wonder if Ramos bat would carry at first ....

[Lintyfresh85]

18% but Flores isn't much better. It's really on our pitchers. They don't care about baserunners because they can strike everyone out and get by.

Ramos dropped at least two that I can remember. Love his bat, but defense is the number 1 priority behind the plate. I wonder if Ramos bat would carry at first ....

Ramos is a perfectly fine defensive catcher.

Flores is really good. You can manage just fine with a perfectly fine defensive catcher.

And it's a stretch to say the least to claim his 18% CS in 2012 means anything at all. 32% in a full season is much more indicative of his talent level/arm strength.

[Slateman]

We could claim that 2011 doesn't mean anything ATT, since it was his rookie season. We claim a lot of things. The numbers speak for themselves

[Lintyfresh85]

We could claim that 2011 doesn't mean anything ATT, since it was his rookie season. We claim a lot of things. The numbers speak for themselves

You're right.

Career 27% CS, right in line with league 28%.

Career .995 fielder, league average .992.

[Slateman]

So, at best, he's shown he can be average. He was terrible this season. Not blocking balls and drops the ball at the plate.

[Dixon Ward]

And it's a stretch to say the least to claim his 18% CS in 2012 means anything at all. 32% in a full season is much more indicative of his talent level/arm strength.

i was just thinking about the beginning of this season. you're right that his 2011 numbers are probably a better measure, but there is no guarantee his numbers would have recovered.

[Lintyfresh85]

So, at best, he's shown he can be average. He was terrible this season. Not blocking balls and drops the ball at the plate.

You're basing your analysis on 24 games. It's flawed, you don't have to admit it... but the data, and the data size is on my side.

[Tyler Durden]

Ramos was worth .6 wins in 25 games.  If he played 125 games, he would have been worth about 3 wins if he continued playing as poorly as you say he was playing.

edit - http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1433&position=C

[The Chief]

Meh.  This is one case where I do not accept WAR.  The way Ramos was playing the plate he could easily have cost us a few more games by now with this anemic offense.  Doubt his bat was likely to do more than make it a zero sum game at best.  Mindfact

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I'm not sure how fWAR evaluates catcher defense.  It used to be the second step in the underpants gnome business model.  UZR used to not try, but there have been some other saber types on hardball times and elsewhere who have started to try to quantify framing and blocking pitches as well as arms.  I think Chief is right to be skeptical about WAR measurements for catchers with obvious defensive problems like Ramos this year. 

[Sharp]

Yeah, catcher defense is an area that still doesn't have really reliable metrics.  That said, I remember us really liking Ramos's defense for most of last year.

[Tyler Durden]

I don't know how reliable it is either, but the results more or less match the eyeball test.

WAR leaders among catchers in 2011 - http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0

And in 2012 - http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0