Bullpen Discussion

[PC]

have you looked at his numbers:

35.1 IP 39 H 23 ER 6 HR 15 BB 29 K (2-4, 5.86 ERA, 1.53 WHIP)

Compare those numbers to the 7th pitcher in other teams' bullpens.  I'll bet they're very similar.  Canon fodder is the exact definition of the backend of almost every team's bullpen.

He's not nearly the biggest problem in this bullpen.  We have SO MANY other spots to fill in this bullpen, Bergmann would be the best of the worst.  You replace the worst of the worst first and I doubt we can find enough replacements to replace them all.  You keep Bergmann BECAUSE he's better than Villone and Sosa and they HAVE to be replaced!  Probably Rivera too.

[The Chief]

Compare those numbers to the 7th pitcher in other teams' bullpens.  I'll bet they're very similar.  Canon fodder is the exact definition of the backend of almost every team's bullpen.

He's not nearly the biggest problem in this bullpen.  We have SO MANY other spots to fill in this bullpen, Bergmann would be the best of the worst.  You replace the worst of the worst first and I doubt we can find enough replacements to replace them all.  You keep Bergmann BECAUSE he's better than Villone and Sosa and they HAVE to be replaced!  Probably Rivera too.

Something we agree on.  Incredible

[sportsfan882]

Compare those numbers to the 7th pitcher in other teams' bullpens.  I'll bet they're very similar.  Canon fodder is the exact definition of the backend of almost every team's bullpen.

He's not nearly the biggest problem in this bullpen.  We have SO MANY other spots to fill in this bullpen, Bergmann would be the best of the worst.  You replace the worst of the worst first and I doubt we can find enough replacements to replace them all.  You keep Bergmann BECAUSE he's better than Villone and Sosa and they HAVE to be replaced!  Probably Rivera too.

he is a big problem in the pen. and we have seen this crap from Bergmann time and time again. he shows glimpses of being solid and then craps it away quickly.

He, Villone, Sosa, and Rivera should be let go. Burnett, MacDougal and Clippard should get invitations to ST but not guaranteed spots.

Don't you want us to have a good bullpen? haven't you seen how detrimental it is to have such a bad bullpen?

[PC]

he is a big problem in the pen. and we have seen this crap from Bergmann time and time again. he shows glimpses of being solid and then craps it away quickly.

He, Villone, Sosa, and Rivera should be let go. Burnett, MacDougal and Clippard should get invitations to ST but not guaranteed spots.

Don't you want us to have a good bullpen? haven't you seen how detrimental it is to have such a bad bullpen?

How do you possibly expect them to fill that many spots?  Other teams will be looking for bullpen help too, you know!

[JMW IV]

  Other teams will be looking for bullpen help too, you know!

Bergmann, Villone, and Sosa will be available.

[The Chief]

Bergmann 2009 game logs - http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=bergmja01&t=p&year=2009

I don't agree with SF's "glimpses" assessment, but that's no real surprise.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Compare those numbers to the 7th pitcher in other teams' bullpens.  I'll bet they're very similar.  Canon fodder is the exact definition of the backend of almost every team's bullpen.

He's not nearly the biggest problem in this bullpen.  We have SO MANY other spots to fill in this bullpen, Bergmann would be the best of the worst.  You replace the worst of the worst first and I doubt we can find enough replacements to replace them all.  You keep Bergmann BECAUSE he's better than Villone and Sosa and they HAVE to be replaced!  Probably Rivera too.

Dude, Bergmann is not as good as Clippard/MacDougal/Burnett.  Your perspective is skewed.  Realistically, those guys should be like your 5/6/7, and then Bergmann should be outta town.

[sportsfan882]

How do you possibly expect them to fill that many spots?  Other teams will be looking for bullpen help too, you know!

Free Agency, Trades, and in-house.

We have a bunch of Minor Leaguers who are far superior to a Jason Bergmann-type. To just name a few: Drew Storen, Josh Wilkie, Clint Everts, Yunior Novoa, Jack Spradlin, etc.

Is it that unrealistic to hope that we can see pretty much a whole new bullpen next year? We will not win with any bullpen even closely resembling 2009's version.

[The Chief]

We have a bunch of Minor Leaguers who are far superior to a Jason Bergmann-type. To just name a few: Drew Storen, Josh Wilkie, Clint Everts, Yunior Novoa, Jack Spradlin, etc.

:spidernat batsignal:

until those guys get called up and suck, then SF will be saying the same crap about them

[sportsfan882]

Dude, Bergmann is not as good as Clippard/MacDougal/Burnett.  Your perspective is skewed.  Realistically, those guys should be like your 5/6/7, and then Bergmann should be outta town.

This. Clippard/Mac/Burnett are back-end bullpen options on a good team.

We have A LOT of work to do this off-season if we want to put a respectable team on the field in 2010.

[Nathan]

Free Agency, Trades, and in-house.

We have a bunch of Minor Leaguers who are far superior to a Jason Bergmann-type. To just name a few: Drew Storen, Josh Wilkie, Clint Everts, Yunior Novoa, Jack Spradlin, etc.

Is it that unrealistic to hope that we can see pretty much a whole new bullpen next year? We will not win with any bullpen even closely resembling 2009's version.

Minor league numbers don't mean crap.  They need to show that they are superior to Bermann in the majors.

[hammondsnats]

Free Agency, Trades, and in-house.

We have a bunch of Minor Leaguers who are far superior to a Jason Bergmann-type. To just name a few: Drew Storen, Josh Wilkie, Clint Everts, Yunior Novoa, Jack Spradlin, etc.

Is it that unrealistic to hope that we can see pretty much a whole new bullpen next year? We will not win with any bullpen even closely resembling 2009's version.

we've seen logan kensing/jason bergmann pitch well in AAA and then come up here and we know what happens next.  and they've had tastes of the bigs before, the other guys don't yet.

[sportsfan882]

Bergmann 2009 game logs - http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=bergmja01&t=p&year=2009

I don't agree with SF's "glimpses" assessment, but that's no real surprise.

you are really defending Bergmann? you want us to keep that bum on the roster? omg.

he was good for a few weeks and that was it.

[PC]

Dude, Bergmann is not as good as Clippard/MacDougal/Burnett.  Your perspective is skewed.  Realistically, those guys should be like your 5/6/7, and then Bergmann should be outta town.

Ideally that would be true, if we were starting from the point of not having Villone and Sosa on the roster.  Completely ignoring Jason Bergmann, how good do you expect the replacements for Villone and Sosa to be?

[sportsfan882]

Minor league numbers don't mean crap.  They need to show that they are superior to Bermann in the majors.

exactly. and I am confident that at least a few of those guys will indeed do so. None are on the 40-man but I want to see some of those guys in September. need to get rid of Sosa, Villone, etc to open up 40-man spots.

[sportsfan882]

we've seen logan kensing/jason bergmann pitch well in AAA and then come up here and we know what happens next.  and they've had tastes of the bigs before, the other guys don't yet.

exactly. until the others prove that time and time again they cannot pitch in the Majors they deserve shots over bum asses like Saul Rivera, Jason Bergmann, Logan Kensing, etc.

[The Chief]

you are really defending Bergmann? you want us to keep that bum on the roster? omg.

he was good for a few weeks and that was it.

Prior to his last 5 appearances, he was allowing runs about once in every four appearances.  Hardly #1 on our list of priorities.  You just can't understand because you have no concept of anything inbetween "omg i want to sniff his jock" and "holy crap he should be put down"

[JMW IV]

just a thought..

how many times are we going to keep throwing the same crap out there, because we are deathly afraid of something new and "unproven"?  

the "proven" crap is not getting the job done. and no matter how many times you yell LAC, we're not going to go out and sign 4 FA starters and 7 FA relievers. it's just not going to happen. so we'll need some people to step up from our system and produce.

how the freak else are these prospects going to get "proven" if everyone is afraid to give them a chance to "prove" themselves?

[sportsfan882]

Prior to his last 5 appearances, he was allowing runs about once in every four appearances.  Hardly #1 on our list of priorities.  You just can't understand because you have no concept of anything inbetween "omg i want to sniff his jock" and "holy crap he should be put down"

he's given up runs in his last 5 outings.

and it's more than just the stats in this case. are you watching him pitch? he looks god awful. getting beat on bad pitches time and time again.

look at his overall numbers. 5.86 ERA!! sick.

he's trash and will always be trash.

you aren't just saying this bullcrap because Bergmann reads the forum are you? :ie tomterp:

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Bergmann 2009 game logs - http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=bergmja01&t=p&year=2009

I don't agree with SF's "glimpses" assessment, but that's no real surprise.

How could you disagree?  That's actually 100% accurate (rarity for SF ).  We've seen Bergmann put together some very impressive PARTIAL seasons, but has he ever kept it together for an entire season, in the rotation or the 'pen?  We both know the answer to that.

[Nat of the Living Dead]

just a thought..

how many times are we going to keep throwing the same crap out there, because we are deathly afraid of something new and "unproven"? 

the "proven" crap is not getting the job done.

how the freak else are these prospects going to get "proven" if everyone is afraid to give them a chance to "prove" themselves?

Word.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

just a thought..

how many times are we going to keep throwing the same crap out there, because we are deathly afraid of something new and "unproven"? 

the "proven" crap is not getting the job done.

how the freak else are these prospects going to get "proven" if everyone is afraid to give them a chance to "prove" themselves?

A lot of these "proven" guys have only proven that they can't cut it.  Time to unleash some of the kids in our 'pen.

[sportsfan882]

just a thought..

how many times are we going to keep throwing the same crap out there, because we are deathly afraid of something new and "unproven"? 

the "proven" crap is not getting the job done.

how the freak else are these prospects going to get "proven" if everyone is afraid to give them a chance to "prove" themselves?

I have a feeling our September call-ups are going to be very underwhelming.

Something like Maxwell, Kensing, Detwiler, Martis, Estrada.

If it were up to me I would call up Desmond, Wilkie, Novoa, Maxwell, Detwiler, Everts, and Estrada.

[The Chief]

It's a complete waste of my time to even attempt to discuss this with any of you.

you aren't just saying this bullcrap because Bergmann reads the forum are you? :ie tomterp:

Yes, that's exactly why.  He pays me to say nice things about him

[JMW IV]

nobody wants to see the prospects up here because "minor league stats don't mean crap, they need to prove it in the Majors"...

but then everyone whines, and nages, and moans when the Nats call up trash like Pete freaking Orr.